About the Future...

Find NPCs in major towns and cities.

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PiDion
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About the Future...

Post by PiDion » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:23 pm

I Got a PM around 6-7 days ago at wowace. Someone sayed he waited so long for a german AMC trnaslation, so he has made one himself, but since editing could be a pain in the ass, he had rewrite the addon to work with the internal wow maps and uses a overlay to number them, as well he sayd that he had write a collector part for ingame database changing (run around an click the npc to get them in the database.(editing on the fly). i think this is great, but... but in exchange to have this in the addon he wants to take over it to have it as his own, i mean it sounds good, but i have managed to do this addon for so long now and i'm not in the mood to give it to someone else at he moment. Sure im not a great author, especially i don't understand lua the most time but this is my hobby, this is something i have build up, with the the help of many great People (Especially sheavi, Dan and all the crazy guys here in the board). Maybe his addon is better to handle but i like the way what amc is now (And i think the most authors agree, that they don't give away ther Baby because someone says his addon is way much better).

What do you think? (the contributors, helpers and useres of AMC)

Sure it would be a great help if npc collecting was that easy, but i mean i have learned alot through the editing process (sure its a pain in the ass sometimes but its more fun in my eyes). Its up to all of you, if you want that way, i give the addon up and give it to him.

greetings
Andre (aka pidion)
...preoccupied in thoughts...
2016 a Star Reborn...

Nihlo
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Re: About the Future...

Post by Nihlo » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:02 am

If you don't want...you don't have to, it was your idea. Always nice if someone wants to help you, but just because of making unnecessary efforts and then stealing someone's project...not so nice. He should have asked you before he starts to work for himself then it wouldn't be in vain.
[color=red]Dan Gilbert[/color] wrote:you're my hero Nihlo

seriously
Sum quod credo

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arith
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Re: About the Future...

Post by arith » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:50 am

Hm....
We usually release the addon with some free open source and free distribution license like GPL or some similar license, right?
So as long as he also follow the license, he can rewrite the code and distribute his own version.

The interesting thing is, I got similar thought, I was thinking about maybe a in-game NPC info collector may help to collect NPC's ID, name, etc, and then we can have some contributor to go to each major city and visit all the NPCs and then we can localize all the languages....

Yes, the localization is quite painful. Till now I still don't have the energy to localize all of them into zhTW....
So, I am just thinking to enhance the way to localize it, and thingking about maybe at least the NPC description can be translate by library, may help a little.

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PiDion
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Re: About the Future...

Post by PiDion » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:44 pm

It seems to me that his spirit has gone, because i gave him an answer that he should post here, but i never got a response (Here or at wowace where he pm'd me). That he does not respond i think, he had no hopes to get that addon, maybe even he had no addon at all, cause if he truely wanted it he had give some screens at least from his version...

To think about the Future, i have some ideas, but sinse i am terrible at lua coding it could be very hard to implent these for me (Everyone who helps dont need to do this for free, despite the fact that this addon does not get many from the reward program, you get a share, but the quantity of the share is based upon how big your help is)

My Ideas:

-Find/Write a Mechanism/Addon to collect & translate the NPCs
-Clean up the Maps (some are really hard to read @ my Game (1680x1050 Resolution))
-Maybe a tool like the Mopmap database updater (to get the users involved in the process of collecting)
-Or a website where people can write the NPC names/positions in a form and submit it to us

It is not my Project anymore, its Ours (all the helpers, contributers, users) even if you dont help, some of you are helping by simply beeing in this board ;) (I know we in germay would say "Schleimer" (bootlicker in english) at this moment, but it is like it is). Lets Look in the Future and rock the game with AMC :D

Sweaty Greets from hot as hell Germany
Andre ;D
2016 a Star Reborn...

Nihlo
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Re: About the Future...

Post by Nihlo » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:25 pm

gring ma schon jung

und is wirklich heiß
[color=red]Dan Gilbert[/color] wrote:you're my hero Nihlo

seriously
Sum quod credo

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arith
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Re: About the Future...

Post by arith » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:49 am

PiDion wrote: 1.Find/Write a Mechanism/Addon to collect & translate the NPCs
2.Clean up the Maps (some are really hard to read @ my Game (1680x1050 Resolution))
3.Maybe a tool like the Mopmap database updater (to get the users involved in the process of collecting)
4.Or a website where people can write the NPC names/positions in a form and submit it to us
1. is there any clue to have an in-game addon to collect those info? Or maybe there already some tool existed? I have my addon (FastQuest) which will store user's tracked quest, so I am also thinking to have some codes to record the NPC's info.
2. not quite get your point
3. In AtlasLoot, we actually have one offline tool to lookup the items' translation from Armory, so....maybe write some tool like that to find the NPC translation from game web site.
4. You can enable WoWACE's localization feature, once you create English phrases, then anyone can help on translating it on the web.
Hm....looks like you have grant me the Author permission, then I can help to upload English translation so we will have a base phrases.
But before doing that, I am still thinking how to better enhance the way we add the NPC's name and his/her description. As this may impact to the way we localize it, not sure if we should wait a little bit once we have a conclusion.

I think the problem for the translation is: the amout of the NPC are just tooooo many....
When YeaChan is localizing NPC's name into zhCN, he(she?) had also added the NPC ID as a reference. I am wondering if NPC ID can be use to run-time showing the localized NPC name.

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PiDion
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Re: About the Future...

Post by PiDion » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:35 am

to #2: Let me put it this way: Some of the numbers are harder to read, if the resolution is over a certain point, in my case i use a resolution of 1680x1050 and the ui scale on the lowest you can set. this way, some maps, like stormwind the numbers are harder to read, until you get to a 30 cm range im front of your screen. this is what i'm trying to say.

The only addon that i know who record all npc data is mobmap, i dont know if we can read these parts out (before that we have to ask the author).

And yes i gave you author permission, since i'm at the moment in some job related moving process (And some Work related training course).

I have used the wowhead database to translate the english to german npc names, it was easier than running ingame around and edit it then, maybe i can work out a scrip where we fill in the npc id and get all translated names of this npc.

the most easiest way is atm a automatic npc collector, who set them automatically in a database, that AMC can use without much editing, but this is out of my coding skills.

and now im out for my seminar, i look here around from time to time but maybe im no use :D
2016 a Star Reborn...

Andy
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Re: About the Future...

Post by Andy » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:05 pm

Hi,

I'm the one, that send a PM to S1nless at wowace. Like him, I'm also not every day at wowace, and I was away over long weekend.

I was asking him, if he is interested in working together or if I should start my own addon or extension to atlas.

My addon is new in most parts, including a complete english and german database, and a translation of all the NPCs from wowhead.com to Spanish, French and Russian.
My actual version has also support for the AMC database structure and images to support zhTW, not translated by me. (I have to remove this in case of an independent addon.)
The only old code is the search function of AMC, which I can not make much better. But as far as i know, this function is already from the original author of AMC.

Like PiDion already noted, I lost the patience to wait for an actual german version of AMC. So I started to translate it by my self. But after translating one city manually, by writing all the names and titles to a file, I gave up. It was much to boring. I decided to make me the live easier by writing an addon that allow an automatic data collection.
The result is an addon which allow you to walk through the cities and only need to click all the NPCs and shop signs to include (translate) it to the database. One also can set notes to NPCs and shops, or give regions a special name. Thats, there is still some text to translate manually.
Additionally I wrote a function to use internal WoW maps and overlay all the labels to the map on show (icons as labels are possible, i.e. for letterbox). So you can see directly all your changes during data collection, which make it more easy. If you see a difference during play, you can change the database on the fly. And one side effect is the much better quality at a large display, because the internal maps have a high resolution and the labels with internal fonts scale with the display resolution.

As requested, I saved a few screenshots at:
http://my.curse.com/members/Andymon/fil ... fault.aspx

Andy

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arith
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Re: About the Future...

Post by arith » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:06 am

Hi Andy,

It sounds like you have done a great job in enhancing the AMC. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I also feel it's quite painful to translate thousands of NPC names. And we are not just "translating", we need to lookup the database from the game web site, or we need to go to each location to find the NPC and then to make sure we are translate it correctly. Not to mentioned we may need to have characters for both Alliance and Horde. So till now I still did not complete the translation for zhTW.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I think the spirit to distribute the source codes to the entire community is good, so that we all benefit from it.
AMC is distribute with Creative Commons Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike 3.0, although I am not very familiar with this license, but basically the spirit of the open source is similar to others.

So if we did not violate the license agreement, we can adopted other author's codes to use in our work, in private is fine, but to distribute, we still need to follow the license agreement.

I feels that if you would like to contribute your work and integrate it into the original AMC, it may be great. For now PiDion is still the addon's lead so we need to talk to him. Or, if you would like to start with another addon, maybe call it "AtlasMajorCities Enhanced" or "AtlasMajorCities_modded", anyway, WoWAce also allow player to clone the addon from the original author and to start with your own version, so I think that's fine. But again, we should try not to violate the license agreement. (I didn't judge that you violate it or not, it can be another topic if necessary)

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PiDion
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Re: About the Future...

Post by PiDion » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:31 pm

Andy wrote:Hi,

I'm the one, that send a PM to S1nless at wowace. Like him, I'm also not every day at wowace, and I was away over long weekend.

I was asking him, if he is interested in working together or if I should start my own addon or extension to atlas.

My addon is new in most parts, including a complete english and german database, and a translation of all the NPCs from wowhead.com to Spanish, French and Russian.
My actual version has also support for the AMC database structure and images to support zhTW, not translated by me. (I have to remove this in case of an independent addon.)
The only old code is the search function of AMC, which I can not make much better. But as far as i know, this function is already from the original author of AMC.

Like PiDion already noted, I lost the patience to wait for an actual german version of AMC. So I started to translate it by my self. But after translating one city manually, by writing all the names and titles to a file, I gave up. It was much to boring. I decided to make me the live easier by writing an addon that allow an automatic data collection.
The result is an addon which allow you to walk through the cities and only need to click all the NPCs and shop signs to include (translate) it to the database. One also can set notes to NPCs and shops, or give regions a special name. Thats, there is still some text to translate manually.
Additionally I wrote a function to use internal WoW maps and overlay all the labels to the map on show (icons as labels are possible, i.e. for letterbox). So you can see directly all your changes during data collection, which make it more easy. If you see a difference during play, you can change the database on the fly. And one side effect is the much better quality at a large display, because the internal maps have a high resolution and the labels with internal fonts scale with the display resolution.

As requested, I saved a few screenshots at:
http://my.curse.com/members/Andymon/fil ... fault.aspx

Andy
Nice work, i have to say, really nice work :D

I don't see any violations of the License "if" you want to release it as your own Addon, as long as you release it under a similar License. But i want you to be a part of the AMC crew if you don't mind. It would be a Huge step for this addon. I give you the rights at wowace and your part of the share for your work. But only if you want to :) The rights at wowace would be "only" Author, but everyone who is involved (arith, me and "you" if you want) can say something against changes, since it is not my addon anymore (I'm just the guy who press the release button when its done ;) ), it is one of the community ;).

It's all up to you now Andy, I would be happy to have you here :)

Greetings
Pidion (S1NLESS on wowace)
2016 a Star Reborn...

Andy
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Re: About the Future...

Post by Andy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:43 pm

I would like to join your small group. Indeed competition is good for buissenes, ;) but the users know AMC better, and my time is limited, so help is welcome to me. :)

But, whats the community behind AMC?
... since it is not my addon anymore (I'm just the guy who press the release button when its done ;) ), it is one of the community.
I see only Pidion (S1NLESS) and arith as authors, and 2 translators.

If you want to merge the 2 projects, I would suggest the following steps:
- I need a quite different localization database structure at curse and I don't use ACE (no need to shoot with such a big canon to such small bird). So I would create a new project at curseforge with a new structured localization database. curseforge works similar to WOWACE, because its the same server, with only a different look.
Name?
Or, if you would like to start with another addon, maybe call it "AtlasMajorCities Enhanced"
sounds nice.
- I add all of you as autors or translators. Please send me a list.
- I have version 1.5a of AMC included, with locales for deDE and enUS. So you can see, how to implement the old format database files for zhCN and zhTW. I think, there are not much changes to do, before you copy the files over to the new project.

What do you think?

Oh, and you have to agree to a condition: The addon is donations free.

Andy

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arith
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Re: About the Future...

Post by arith » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:34 am

Sorry I am a bit confused. Andy, do you mean you would like to create a new addon project on CurseForge?
PiDion, although you mentioned now AMC is not only "your" addon since now there are several contributors, but still we need a project lead which means you are the project lead.
Back to Andy, we do can discuss the database structure, so I am thinking if I also agree your format is even better (I have not yet see your codes, where to find your codes BTW?), and if we come to a conclusion that to migrate the database to your version, then we can create a SVN branch to do the merging thing. The main trunk will keep the most stable codes. Once the branch is well-merged and tested, then we can move it back to main trunk.

Using either WoWAce or CurseForge is fine, but the AMC project link displayed in CurseForge will still direct to WoWAce (http://www.wowace.com/addons/amc/), so you still need to login to WoWAce to manage the project. If you would not login to WoWAce for some reason, then you still can use the same SVN repository we use to update the codes (svn://svn.wowace.com/wow/amc/mainline/).
I have some projects, some on wowace and some on curseforge. The project managing features are almost the same. So I would recommend you to login wowace.

But starting a new addon project would be another story. You can create a new project and name it any name you like, and you will be the project lead I guess, and you can invite PiDion, me, and others to be in the Author role (or not). PiDion may join your project, or may not. Same to me. So I say it's another story.

As for the donation, I agree with you that when there are several contributors, then the donation will be a problematic stuff. So the easier way to resolve it is to disable the donation.

Andy
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Re: About the Future...

Post by Andy » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:23 pm

One problem I see at WowAce is the handling of the localization. Curseforge has an interface for the localization handling. How do you manage the localization of AMC at WowAce?

If you see my code and know lua, you will understand my different database structure. I'm using a function to create the Atlas input format, which is your actual database structure.
Oh yes, this function also automatic create word-wrap for long lines.

Creating temporary a new project (without a public downloadable package, like an alpha release) and merging afterwards with an other project should be possible (so I read). So, you can have a look at my code and test it, if you want. And I have not to give my code to anyone which I don't know. Later we can merge the two projects, if we find a consensus and a joint addon structure.

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PiDion
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Re: About the Future...

Post by PiDion » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:00 pm

Andy wrote:One problem I see at WowAce is the handling of the localization. Curseforge has an interface for the localization handling. How do you manage the localization of AMC at WowAce?
Curseforge and wowace are build of the same base (the curseforge base) they are all the same (i have some projects on wowace & curseforge and see no difference)
2016 a Star Reborn...

Andy
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Re: About the Future...

Post by Andy » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:10 pm

You disabled the localization handling at your WowAce page?
My project at curseforge has a localization tab but AMC at WowAce not.
How do you manage the localization?

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